I lived in Argentina for fifteen years, between 1959 and 1974, and I love that country. I left, reluctantly, for economic reasons. I had been expatriated by a French company as deputy director of Novobra, Empresa Constructora SRL, a road builder company for which I worked almost fourteen years.

- Were all your children born in Argentina?

- No. The first three, Yves, Eric and Brigitte were born in Paris, but they were very young when we arrived to Buenos Aires. The other six were born there, but they all have dual nationality, French and Argentinian.

- Why do you love this country?

- When you arrive, the first thing you feel is that you will have no difficulty to be “one more” . In a very short time, a foreigner feels Argentinian. Initially, I was surprised that many French children did not speak a word in French, but I quickly realised that their parents were so integrated, felt so at ease, that they spoke less and less in their own language. I also had this problem with my first child born in Argentina, who refused to speak French. I had to leave him a few months here with his grandparents - who do not speak Spanish - before he got on with it. Today, they are all perfectly bilingual.

- I believe that the integration of foreigners comes from the way of being of Argentinians, from their spirit. When I arrived to Argentina in 1959, the only thing I was able to say in Spanish was "yes" and "no", since all I had studied came from a French-Spanish manual and the words that I learned had no practical meaning in Argentina. But on the streets, if an Argentinian encounters someone who is looking for something he can’t explain, he tries to guess what you are looking for, he makes gestures, grimaces, until he finally helps you out.

- When I arrived, most of the Argentinians that I knew asked me immediately if I was going to settle permanently in the country, if I was going to adopt the nationality... As if, indeed, people were pleased to receive you. At the same time, in Paris, it was usual to hear comments in the subway against foreigners (fortunately, it has changed a lot today) and against those who come "to take the bread and the work from you". But Argentinians have received me differently and I was highly impressed.

- Another thing that strikes people coming in,  is when reading newspapers. The international column is so detailed and so complete that you can easily monitor key aspects of domestic politic and economic development of most countries... There is a difference in the essential concerns, a way of looking outwards that makes foreigners feeling valued and highly regarded. In addition, the country is beautiful, from Tierra del Fuego to the waterfalls of Iguazu, and then there is the sun, plenty of sun...

- Obviously, I was a manager of a French company, I had a salary and a standard of living that were not precisely those of most Argentinians, but I still think that this was a country where most of the people lived happily. We had a great family life (you can imagine with so many children!) but, despite everything, we lived as Argentinians, at least those living in Buenos Aires, who use to go out often. It's incredible to see how the porteño likes to go to the cinema, to the theatre, to restaurants. In Buenos Aires, it is rare for  a family not to  go to a restaurant at least once a week.

- But Argentinians have defects...

- Of course, a lot! The main is probably how they see money. I have the feeling that Argentinians believe that money must come from heaven, or races, or PRODE (football lottery). In 1974, an Argentinian labourer earned much more than the value of his work. For example, it was well-known that dockers had higher wages than the corresponding international prices. I don’t know, it seems now that everything has changed because the current Minister of Economy has acknowledged that real wages fell by 50 percent, but at the time I am telling you about , workers had a higher standard of living than they should compared to the actual work they did. And unhappily, they were constantly requesting financial benefits they didn’t deserve. I think this is the main flaw of Argentinians: their conception of money and work.

- And what opinion did you have of the governments?

- Well, when I lived in Argentina, there were military governments half of the time, but I have not a very good opinion of the civilians ones...

- You arrived at the time of Frondizi...

- Yes, and after there was the military coup d’état by Guido. Illía came next, another coup d’état, and after that, General Onganía, then General Lanusse...

- No, before was General Levingston...

- Yes, you're right, Onganía, Levingston and Lanusse. Then, in1973 there were elections, Cámpora, Peron and Isabel...

- You forgot Lastiri...

- Oh yes! Cámpora, Lastiri, Peron and Isabel. I left the country when Isabel was already there. Let's see... Frondizi, Guido, Illía, Onganía, Levingston, Lanusse, Cámpora, Lastiri, Perón and Isabel. Ten presidents in fifteen years.

- Do we count ministers?

- No! (Domergue laughs. It is common in Argentina to make jokes about the institutional instability).

- On that point, yes, I loose my memory... But to be serious - excuse me if I’m not friendly with Argentinians - my point of view is that every government, without exception, civilian or military, held to power only to line their pockets. Whether selling shaped iron, as Alsogaray (Minister of Economy 1958-62), or anyhow, I do not know a single politician who considerd the action of a government otherwise than as a good deal. I heard Argentinians saying: " We would be much better without this government... » I believe this is true.

- Every time that there was a civilian government, there were huge economic problems, there were scandals, so the army took the power to"put things in order". But a few months later, it was the same thing or worse, it was more complicated because the army is armed... For my part, like many people, whenever there was a military coup d’état, I thought that considering the situation we were in, it could be better, but afterwards it was the same or worse.

- Ultimately, the only difference was that the army took the power by force and civilians by the elections... So, people complained less about civilian governments, perhaps because they had chosen it themselves.

- Among the presidents that you have known, which one did you find best?

- The one I preferred was surely not the one the Argentinians most liked: General Onganía. I believe that this man was honest and that he did not try to line his pockets.

- But you saw what happened after...

- Yes, I do not say it was perfect. Onganía was wrong because he should have organised a referendum to see if people agreed with his coup d’état instead of using repression. As a foreigner, I have always refrained from intervening or judging politics, but it seems to me that there have been problems between militaries themselves. I think that Lanusse went against Onganía... Yet, I do not know.

- How did your children feel in Argentina?

- After a few years, the three that were born in France were more Argentinian than French. So much, that the eldest refused twice to come on holiday to France with us. He wanted to stay to visit the country with his Argentinian friends. It is a pity, because now, I don’t know if he will know the country where he was born... The other six were born there, so naturally they were Argentinian. I have the feeling that in a few years the opposite will happen for the youngest. Now that we are back in France they will feel more French than Argentinians.

- And your wife?

- She loved Argentina, but she had no difficulty to return to France, because she is from Paris and she has her whole family here. On my side, I was born in Egypt and my parents, although both are French, were installed in Africa for several generations. On the other hand, she has borne the brunt of the economic difficulties that we have had during our last two years in Argentina. We were accustomed to live in comfort, we were served, and then suddenly we had restrictions. So, when I decided to return to our country, it was a relief for her.

DIRECTOR OF A NATIONAL COMPANY

- You said earlier that you had left Argentina for economic reasons...

- Yes. In 1973, I left the French company and I tried to set up my own business in computers. I bought a small computer and I created my own company. Unfortunately, at that time serious economic problems began (the situation was not as serious as today, but it began). Directors of companies I was canvassing told me that my proposal was very interesting, that my system could provide twice the information for half the price, but that it would oblige them to get rid of two or three employees, which was impossible.

- In Argentina, growth opportunities for small and medium companies are, at some stage, almost non-existent. There came a time when any modernisation produced an infrastructure reduction, rather than leading to an increase in production and business, but without the possibility of increasing the production. I understood their position, and besides, I congratulate them because, in human terms, their decision to keep their employees instead of decreasing their costs and modernising their business was commendable. But I could not live on promises "for when things will go better." A company works with contracts, not promises. Thus, after one year and a half of tests, seeing that the economic situation worsened, I decided to return to France with my whole family. I have nine children, and I could not take the risk of bankruptcy (you can imagine what it's like giving something to eat to this entire band). That was my immediate prospect in 1974.

- If you allow me to make an assessment and a comparison: during the fifteen years that you spent in Argentina, fully integrated into the country, the first thirteen years you enjoyed the status of a businessman in a foreign country, while the last two years, you experienced the management of a national small business...

- Yes, that’s right. Because the French company for which I worked, planned to leave the country in 1972. Everything was unstable but, as I wanted to stay, I decided to leave the company and to try my own luck . I chose the wrong time. I noticed that in Argentina computers were very big, which involved a lot of work and very high budgets. But there was nothing of medium size. So I bought a small computer with which I could offer a computerised service for wages, payments, reassessments, and so on. With reassessments, I have worked relatively well because inflation was so huge that we had to constantly recalculate purchase prices, interests, depreciations, and so on. Calculations were very long and too systematic to be made by hand. But the economic situation of medium-sized companies was the worst. Companies were asphyxiated by the same inflation that gave me a bit of work. And it was not huge: it was approximately 30% per year. When I returned in 1976 to look for my son, my friends told me that the bank interest was increased to 10% per month!

- And what kind of impression did you have with this experience as a national businessman?

- That it was very difficult to work under such conditions. I can’t say much more about Argentinian national companies because it was very short, but what I know is that since, money has no longer the same value to me. This is not the  answer of a businessman, but simply my own experience. During this difficult period, we were never hungry, far from it, but the fact of being really scared of that, has changed something in my conception of money. Now, when I have to discuss 100 francs in the wages of a worker, I see the problem differently. I used to think before: “Why does he come to disturb me about 100 francs!” And it was normal because I've never needed 100 francs... 

YVES

- My son Yves disappeared in September 1976. We had been in France for already a year and a few months. But Yves remained in Argentina because he wanted to finish his studies in engineering. Eric was also there at this time. According to what Yves wrote to us, he planed to travel to Rosario to look for a job and stay there some time, because the "Faculty was impossible." By saying that, he meant that a number of his student friends had disappeared.

- Yves had worked with me in my business and it seems that the branch of the North American company which manufactured the computer gave him a job. Some time after his leaving, he wrote to Eric, who was in Buenos Aires, that the job offer had been declined and that in a week time he would be back! We no longer heard anything about him.

- When more than twenty days passed, Eric knew that something had happened to him. The government of the country was a terribly violent. Not a day went by without people disappearing and dead bodies being found on the streets. Eric was frightened. He sent me a letter that I received on October 30th . The 31st  was a Saturday, so I had to wait until Monday, November 2nd  to call the French Embassy in Buenos Aires. They told me that Eric should quickly return to France. "If Yves has disappeared, Eric will meet the same fate if he remains in the country," said the vice-consul. The embassy undertook to repatriate him.

- The day he arrived, on November 12th , I took a plane to Buenos Aires. The first thing I did was to submit an application for habeas corpus in Buenos Aires, Rosario and La Plata. This may seem strange, but we actually did not know where our son was abducted. It could have been in Rosario, where he was then, or perhaps on the route between Rosario and Buenos Aires (hence the appeal in La Plata, the capital of the province), or upon arrival. It was difficult to know!

- In all three cases they replied with the same formula:" We can not receive a 'habeas corpus, because your son is not in the hands of the authorities." Original System... "We do not have him, how we receive a habeas corpus?" My son had disappeared into thin air... I stayed in Argentina for a week, but I could not obtain any information.

- The atmosphere was terrible. At the Embassy of France, I was advised to be careful while walking in the street and, most importantly, not to talk to strangers. They told me that many people had been arrested for giving a light to someone. The police arrived and, alleging that the subject was so-called "under surveillance", they were accused of conspiracy! The most serious thing of all this is that most of them have never reappeared... In that Argentina, people would no longer greet each other on the streets.

- Shortly after my return to Paris, we received a letter from Argentina. Someone who obviously had signed with a pseudonym, told us that Yves had been abducted on the street in the city of Rosario, by members of the Communications Battalion 121, belonging to the Army. The person who wrote was probably an Argentinian friend of Yves because the letter was written in a French "translated" from Spanish and filled with very few French phrases. This person told us that Yves was still in the communications battalion, that he had been severely tortured but he was alive. He asked us to do as much hype as possible about his situation because his French citizenship condition could help him to have his life saved.

- What did you do then?

- I went to see the Argentine ambassador in Paris, Tomás de Anchorena. He received me kindly, told me he would investigate the case and that he would take care of everything. I saw him three or four times, and each time he told me the same thing. I spoke to the French government, the Red Cross, Amnesty International, the United Nations... to all the agencies that could do something for Yves, or that would have something to do with Argentina. With my son Eric, who helps me search for his brother, because I can’t take care of everything, we wrote to Jimmy Carter, Edward Kennedy, to all the people aware of the Argentinian situation and who can influence it in one way or another. I got in touch with French journalists so that the press would focus on the French citizens that disappeared in Argentina. Finally, I met with other relatives of missing people and prisoners, the committee of relatives of prisoners or missing French citizens in Argentina and Uruguay.

- This committee has proved his efficiency, although we are far from achieving the release or obtaining information about all our loved ones. I realised that I could not make progress without help. You can’t imagine the amount of time it takes to handle a case like this. We have to go to see journalists, parliamentarians, government officials. We must write letters, make appointments, wait to be received, contact dozens of people. I have a lot of work to do in my job and many responsibilities, so it was impossible to do everything by myself. The committee has allowed us to join our individual forces and to share the workload. So far four or five prisoners were released . But absolutely nothing new is known about the missing people.

- Has the fact that they were French citizens influenced something?

- Yes, without doubt. It is always embarrassing for any government to have cracked down foreigners. Up to now, those that the committee was able to save owe their freedom to being French because who knows when poor Argentinian prisoners will see again their family! However, it has not been as easy as I would have thought at first. With the publication of some articles in the press, I thought it would be enough to have news  from my son, but it was nothing to do with it. With time, I understood that the Argentine army was ready for everything and despised everyone. You saw how Videla took more than two months to reply to Giscard, and so imprecisely...

- I am not saying that the French government has done nothing, but it never had a firm position with the Argentinian army. The Quai d'Orsay was recently irritated with the case of the young Uruguayans Conchon. This young Frenchman  was held in jail for more than two years in Uruguay, without trial. The French government increased the pressure and then, in ten days, he was tried and they decided to expel him from the country. And now he is finally free.

- The French government is perfectly able to put pressure. The Argentinian army owns Mirage planes and AMX 13 tanks; over there, we have Renault, Citroen, Peugeot and other French companies, they are very dependent on French industry. It will be enough for France to announce that there will be no more spare parts, no more patents or any other real measure of this kind, and we would have news about all our compatriots in a short period of time. I do not understand why they have not yet done so. What are they thinking of?

- Do you think your son Yves was involved in something, that he had done something bad?

- When Yves was abducted it had been two years since I had left the country. I can’t exactly say what he was doing. But I know my son. I've raised  him and I have always lived with him. I know, for example, that he is not a criminal. But I'll give you the same explanation that I have repeatedly given since the beginning: the one I gave to journalists, the French authorities, to everyone. Firstly it is clear that in Argentina, they do not need a reason to kill, abduct or arrest people. Any reason is good. For example, Yves had studied in a Franco-Argentinian secondary school and several of his friends have been kidnapped or incarcerated. They were able to capture him simply for having found his name in a notebook or in a letter from a friend.

- Secondly, and pay attention to what I'll tell you, because for me it is very hard and it even created problems with my wife and my children, if Yves has done something that can be proved by a legal and competent court of law, I am prepared to accept the sentence imposed. Including the death sentence. I am French and I know that if tomorrow I commit a crime here, they will send me to prison and it is even possible that I will be guillotined. But they will judge me publicly, I will have the opportunity to defend myself and appeal against the judgement, and so on. Nobody will make me disappear for years, nobody will torture me nor judge me for his own account.

- If everything is done legally, I accept the consequences even if it is painful. When I say legally, I do not refer to the actual legality in Argentina, but to legal standards that are universally recognised. In testimonies that we received from French people who have been released over there, having a shotgun is considered an evidence of belonging to the guerrilla. This was the case of the French citizen Guillemot who has spent more than four years in prison for... possession of war weapons!

- When I went to Argentinafor the last time , I was told that the army put weapons  in people’s houses they wanted to accuse of belonging to guerrilla... That’s why we must see what these people call "evidence" in the case of a judgement, but I repeat: in legal and normal conditions I will accept the punishment. What is unacceptable, is their actions, this eternal "we don’t know him", as if my son had never existed, while we know how and where he was arrested... I believe in the authenticity of the letter I received, because who, except a friend of Yves, would have had my address and would have gone to a the trouble of writing me? Who, except a witness, could have known that Yves had disappeared?

- You say that you know your son. Any father, who knows his children has an idea of their way of thinking, knows their character. You say, for example, that your son is not, cannot be a criminal. But however, could he have done something serious?

- Yes, without doubt. But what does "do something" mean in Argentina today? Here in France, act against the law is something very specific. "Doing something" in a democratic country, is a precise fact, having roughly the same value for the entire community, and especially for the authorities. But in Argentina, to be "subversive" is, for example, not to agree with the government. I have known many French people who had to leave Argentina after the military coup d’état. They had were threatened and their lives were in danger. Do you know what they were doing? They were social workers! They went to shanty towns to help the poor, they cared for children while the mother worked, things like that… And it seems that this is subversive for the military. In France, being a social worker is a legal profession, and in addition, is paid by the government. Being a trade unionist and even a union member is subversive in Argentina. While in any democratic country, a trade union activity is treated with respect. What could “do something” in the head of an Argentinian soldier mean?

- Have you any hope that your son is alive?

- You see, I do not know. We calculate that there are between 25 000 and 30 000 people missing in Argentina. I don’t think the number of prisoners is so high, because concentration camps should be huge and, according to information that we have been able to gather so far, it seems that there are several concentration camps throughout the country, but relatively small, unable to accommodate 30 000 people. During one of my visits to the Quai d'Orsay, a senior official confided to me that, according to figures in possession of the North American State Department, there would be no more than 300 or 400 missing people still alive...

- If it is true, it means that they have killed more than 30 000 people because we must add approximately 6 000 dead people admitted by the Argentinian authorities...

- Yes, 30 000 people among whom we could find Yves. There is only one in a hundred chances that my son is alive. But who knows if being French did not give him one. If they have not killed him in the first days of his arrest, they may be left him alive when I started my campaign, thinking that at some point this young man could be useful. That’s why I’m convinced, like I said earlier, that only the French government has real possibilities to give us news about our loved ones. It would be sufficient if in any economic negotiation, like the purchase of cereals, sale of weapons, and I don’t know what else, this condition is put on the table: we require to know about all our compatriots. But until now, this has not been done.

THE OTHER ARGENTINA

- Mr Domergue, you've spent a third of your life in Argentina. Six of your children were born there. If you did not have some economic difficulties, would you still live there? With everything that happened, how do you feel?

- Frankly, I feel a little resentment and a lot of pain, of course, since I lost my eldest son and I do not know if I will ever see him . As for   the country, even if I still love it, even if I spent a third of my life and I built my family there, I can’t avoid feeling a little bitterness. Don’t forget that, for me, Argentina was like a paradise. When I returned to France with the whole family in 1974, I remember that we were doing calculations... to go on a holiday to Argentina! We evaluated that it would take about a year to be installed and to have a normal pace of life, but we believed that around the Mundial (Football World Cup), we could take a charter and spend a few weeks there.

- Then the Yves event happens. How can I return to a country where my son has disappeared, without explanation, leaving no trace, where nobody feels secure? At one point, I even thought about settling in Argentina to obtain information about Yves, but everyone was afraid that something could happen to me. So I thought that for one of my children I could not leave the other eight because, in addition to the risk, they had to be fed.

- So yes, I have resentment against the situation being experienced by the country, but not against Argentinians. It is curious... Do you know that many French people living in Argentina came to me to tell me to stop my campaign, to remain silent and said to me "you can not criticise the military government "? I wonder what they would say if it was their son who had disappeared... I always answer that as long as Yves is missing, noone will silence me.

- Looking at the work you did with parents of missing people and prisoners, and everything that happened, what experience did you get?

- I feel like I've discovered a country that I did not know. All the time I spent there, I constantly saw lawyers, doctors and people from my social status. I virtually had had no contact with the working class, , except in discussions with union leaders on employment issues... I repeat, I only knew people from my same social background. Here, speaking and working with relatives of Argentinian and French prisoners and missing people, I discovered another face of Argentina that I would have never imagined. I learned that, in the provinces, there are still peones (farm workers) who earn a mere pittance, not even paid in cash, but in the form of vouchers given by their boss, which can be used to buy food in shops... which belong to the boss).

- I was disconcerted. I never thought that this kind of thing can exist. As when slaves existed, because a man who can not even earn a miserable salary in cash, it is as if he belongs to the boss, he depends entirely on him... French nuns, who worked many years in Argentina, told me that, in the north, there are employers that get the State's aid on behalf of peones... and they distribute it to them in vouchers!

- That is to say that for fifteen years, you've never approached this kind of reality…?

- I only knew Argentina’s tourist places where people spend their holidays. Argentina is not like any country in Africa where, at just a stone’s throw from luxury, you can see, breathe and touch the most terrible misery. Over there, you can spend years without realising that it exists. I was fully aware of the misery reality because I heard a lot about it from my sons Yves and Eric. They often insisted on the "other country" within Argentina. But, you know, young people always exaggerate a little on this sort of thing... I also met another French single lady, quite elderly, who took her holidays among indigenous tribes of the Chaco, teaching women how to weave to earn a little money. She also talked to me about that, but you know, in this kind of country you really believe that when you see it, when you know people suffering these conditions.

- But there are enormous shanty towns in the city of Buenos Aires...

- Yes I knew, I had even seen some (although this is not as simple as in Rio de Janeiro, for example, where you just need to raise your head to see "morros"). My son Yves, who had a deep social concern, explained to me that in Argentina, despite the horrors you could see in the shanty towns, however, it was better than the hellish conditions of the country side where there was neither work nor land, nor schools, nor anything. We must also recognise that there are major differences between the shanty towns themselves. I have only seen the less miserable, for example, the one where one of my employees lived. Houses were made of brick and had generally the necessary means: refrigerator, television and so on... I have never visited really miserable ones, but when we know that, for anything, even in the worst conditions, these people don’t want to return to the place they come from, we start thinking that shanty towns are a necessary evil.

- Would you go back to Argentina, Mr. Domergue?

- Of course yes. I told you I love this country, that I have spent many years, that I have many friends. Moreover, I believe it is a country of the future. It is huge; with minerals, oil, good technicians, good labour... Of course I would come back to live and work there. But before that, I must find my son Yves and I must be sure that the country is governed by Democrats and good people, that nobody is at risk of being killed or abducted in the street  in broad daylight, without ever knowing what happened to them.